Gmail Terry Wilson <aftercolumbia@gmail.com>
Inside KSC
10 messages
Andrew Fiddes <andrew@fiddes.us> Fri, Aug 11, 2006 at 1:16 PM
To: aftercolumbia@gmail.com
Cc: ffischer@cfl.rr.com

Terry:

I just read your post where you take issue with yet another aspect of the VSE:
the "Orion" patch.

On the main YahooGroup page, "Inside KSC" is described as:

"This group deals with operations and launch activities at the Kennedy Space
Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station as well as on-orbit operations with
the International Space Station and NASA / KSC affairs in general. Frequent
updates of Space Shuttle and Expendable Launch Vehicle missions are featured
along with first-hand reports and analysis from current and former KSC / CCAFS
personnel. Discussion is also given to monitoring communications around the
space center and orbital tracking of NASA craft. Particular attention is paid
to the upcoming August, 2006 launch of Space Shuttle Atlantis on mission
STS-115."

This list is not an anti-NASA but a pro-NASA list.  We are in favor of new
programs at NASA and are excited about the remainder of the STS program as it
transitions to VSE.  This is not to say that frustrations cannot be aired...but
your consistent negative attitude is necessary.

For over 12 months we have read all of your plans and analysis and how you have
the answers.  We've also read all of your missives about how nothing meets with
your approval.  That's fine; we don't sensor posts.  That said, I am nearing the
end of my patience with your constant negative attitude on a list that is in
favor of what you are against.  We all understand your position and do not need
to read it thirty more times.

I would appreciate you taking this into consideration in future posts.  You have
a YahooGroup of your own where you can talk about how your plans would make
everything better.  I suggest you use it.  Rick's list is not for that purpose.
 If people want to read negative thoughts about NASA, then I'm sure your list
membership will start to grow.

-Andrew


Terry Wilson <aftercolumbia@gmail.com> Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 3:59 PM
To: Andrew Fiddes <andrew@fiddes.us>
Cc: ffischer@cfl.rr.com
This list is not an anti-NASA but a pro-NASA list.  We are in favor of new
programs at NASA and are excited about the remainder of the STS program as it
transitions to VSE.  This is not to say that frustrations cannot be aired...but
your consistent negative attitude is necessary.
 
Well, thanks, but this remark seems inconsistent with the overall theme of this message.
 
For over 12 months we have read all of your plans and analysis and how you have
the answers.
 
No you haven't.  Very few of my "plans and analysis" are on the inside_ksc group.  See http://www.ibiblio.org/mscorbit/mscforum/index.php?PHPSESSID=7a5c5db6e4276df037b0658b2b3b6f90&board=60.0 if you're interested.  Also, I don't have all the answers, I'm still working on the first few.

We've also read all of your missives about how nothing meets with
your approval.
 
That is not the case.  I always was and continue to be impressed by the efforts of JPL, Ames, and other centers.  The only programs that I am really disappointed with are the Shuttle and Space Station and billions worth of vacillating paperwork that followed Shuttle and lead up to ISS.  It's too bad they're the only ones that fly out of KSC (as technically, everyone else flies out of CCAFS.)

That's fine; we don't sensor posts.  That said, I am nearing the
end of my patience with your constant negative attitude on a list that is in
favor of what you are against.  We all understand your position and do not need
to read it thirty more times.
 
I'm guessing you don't frequent http://www.nasawatch.com/.  I'd expect that you would misunderstand them as much as you have me (especially as they get the same sort of objections that I have posted, only from anonymous sources within NASA.)
 
I know the realities of how NASA and the prime contractors earn their keep (buying votes by employing constituents, and cost-plus contracting respectively.)  Those realities are what I'm really against.  All of the flagship programs save Apollo are symptoms of that, and for Apollo, the pioneer of the technique, it was necessary to run it that way to meet the schedule imposed by the speech at Rice.
 
I hope that helps you understand my frustration more clearly.
 
Terry Wilson
After Columbia Project
Andrew Fiddes <andrew@fiddes.us> Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 4:51 PM
To: aftercolumbia@gmail.com
Cc: ffischer@cfl.rr.com

Terry:

My previous correspondence failed to include the word "not" in the phrase
"...your consistent negative attitude is necessary."

So you feel that you have NOT been telling us about all your plans?  Well, we
do.  Furthermore, I frequent NASAWatch.com every day and often forward to Keith
Cowing articles I run across in case he wants to post them.  But that's just
it...it's his site and he can post what he wants there.  You have your own
YahooGroup...go post all your negative beliefs there.

Of late on I-KSC (and even in your answer to my original e-mail) you are taking
an arrogant attitude that insinuates we are merely sheep while you are the
shepard with all the answers.  On the list are reporters, scientists,
researchers, JSC/KSC/CCAFS employees and even Rick Sternbach, the technical
director for several Star Trek series.  For some reason we have been able to go
for almost five years without hearing a constant barrage of empty talk about how
everything is going to hell and are happy to talk about the success NASA is
having and mourn the failures.

Rick and I on the night before the 115 launch were talking about all the
exciting things happening at the Cape and how we were excited about the
future...this is the tone that I-KSC takes and is its misson/goal: a positive
look at operations.

I do understand you and do "understand [your] frustration more clearly."  What I
am saying is that we don't want to hear about your "frustration" all the time on
the list.  This doesn't mean I want to debate your inane ideas further...I want
you to stop the constant barrage of negativism on the list immediately.

There is a reason you only have a handful of members on your list...no one wants
to hear you.  Quit punishing us for the lack of interest in your position.

-Andrew
[Quoted text hidden]
Rick Fischer <ffischer@cfl.rr.com> Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 7:23 PM
To: Terry Wilson <aftercolumbia@gmail.com>
Cc: Andrew Fiddes <andrew@fiddes.us>

Terry,

As this is not a post in the list proper, there is no room for argument, nor is there room for debating whether your idea's that do not conform to the lists goals and stated limitations, belong in this group.

The Inside KSC Yahoo list does have stated rules, which you and the other 609 members are asked to comply with. If you are not aware of them, I'd be glad to send them to you personally, so you may alter posts to fit this groups criteria.

The alternatives for not doing so, are suspension and banning, in that order.

I do apologize for being firm here, but these are rules that I put in place in the year 2001, have obviously have helped this Kennedy Space Center related list to have become successful.

Thank you for your time, and your complete understanding in advance.

 

Rick Fischer -Inside KSC Yahoo List Owner


From: Terry Wilson [mailto:aftercolumbia@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 6:59 PM
To: Andrew Fiddes
Cc: ffischer@cfl.rr.com
Subject: Re: Inside KSC

[Quoted text hidden]
Terry Wilson <aftercolumbia@gmail.com> Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 9:06 PM
To: Rick Fischer <ffischer@cfl.rr.com>
> As this is not a post in the list proper, there is no room for argument, nor is there room for debating whether your idea's that do not conform to the lists goals and stated limitations, belong in this group. <

I haven't been breaking the rules as far as I can tell, can you give
me an example please?
Terry Wilson <aftercolumbia@gmail.com> Sat, Aug 12, 2006 at 10:08 PM
To: Andrew Fiddes <andrew@fiddes.us>
Cc: ffischer@cfl.rr.com
> So you feel that you have NOT been telling us about all your plans?  Well, we do. <

I take it, then that think you are speaking for the other 606 members
of the group?

Also, the only way you can truly qualify this statement is by not only
dredging through every last thing that I've ever posted on the
internet and comparing it to what I've posted on inside_ksc, you would
also have to search all of my private files as well for the plans that
I've never posted on the internet.  Should I be calling the RCMP or
FBI?

 > Of late on I-KSC (and even in your answer to my original e-mail)
you are taking an arrogant attitude that insinuates we are merely
sheep while you are the shepard with all the answers. <

This is coming from the person who in his last email fired off
sarcastic overgeneralizations, those that in reply I specifically
responded that "I don't have all the answers, I'm still working on the
first few."  You obviously must have missed (chosen to miss?) that
part.

It seems to me that your last email, and this one, is actually not
meant to do anything particularly productive, just tick me off enough
that I'll just go and sign off in spite.  I have seen more childish
stuff come my way over other groups and over emails than this, but it
is a surprise coming from someone at Inside_KSC.

If you take the time to sort through posts from
"columbiaaccidentinvestigation", you will see another member of the
group whose views on the group are just as severe as mine (and
elsewhere, they are more so, to the point where I have defended NASA
and the CAIB; not once did I ever call him "arrogant", or anything
else of that sort.)

> What I am saying is that we don't want to hear about your "frustration" all the time on the list. <

That's more like the sort of material I can take with me and learn
from.  Again though, I'd question that "we" might not include all of
the other 606 members on the list.

> This doesn't mean I want to debate your inane ideas further <

You probably mean "insane".

When I call something insane, I can back it up.  I like the idea of an
easy to operate reusable orbital service vehicle that can launch
medium class payloads an order of magnitude cheaper than its
contemporaries.  That is what the Shuttle was supposed to be and what
it is not.  I can give you volumes of information to back up that
claim.

Now that you've called my ideas "inane", can you do the same?

> There is a reason you only have a handful of members on your list...no one wants to hear you.  Quit punishing us for the lack of interest in your position. <

The first sentence I really can't argue with.  You are perfectly
correct: the aftercolumbia group has joined the vast majority of
inactive forums and discussion groups.  Your implication though is
that no one wants to hear the "Lost In Space" position (reference to a
book by journalist Greg Klerkx.)  That is not the case at all, and I
can give you volumes to back that up too.

Also, your blanket statement this time includes not just the 606
members of the Inside_KSC group (which must include over 550 lurkers
who don't post anything that would indicate their positions on such
issues), but the entire world, including the starving children in
Africa that so many I talk to say we should be spending NASA's budget
on.

My apologies for frustrating you with my views that NASA really needs
an overhaul in order to change for the better.  But you are doing
nothing to change my opinions of NASA, only my opinions of you
personally.  I hope you cease flaming me, because it is doing nothing
to hurt my ego.  To be perfectly honest, it is rather nice to know
that someone presumably in the organization I'd like to influence
towards positive change actually cares enough about these issues to
flame me in a direct email.  I think if we ever sat down on the same
table and discussed them rationally, you'd probably find that we agree
on more than you think we would right now.
[Quoted text hidden]
andrew@fiddes.us <andrew@fiddes.us> Sun, Aug 13, 2006 at 7:08 AM
To: Terry Wilson <aftercolumbia@gmail.com>
Cc: ffischer@cfl.rr.com
Terry:

I just did a quick scan on your reply below and can see you again miss the
point.  As co-moderator I am speaking for the list.

Go ahead and call the RCMP and FBI.  I really don't care about your
frustrations
and am placing you on moderated status since you still miss the point.  Good
bye.

-Andrew

P.S. "including the starving children in Africa that so many I talk to say we
should be spending NASA's budget on."  Well, since your tax dollars don't
contribute anything to NASA's budget, that is an incredible statment.  Of
course, if you knew anything about the US Budget, you would know that
approximately 15 billion dollars is spent on AIDS education and infrastructure
improvements in Africa every year...approximately equal to NASA's
budget.  Feel
free to reply, but I assure you it will not be read.
[Quoted text hidden]
Rick Fischer <ffischer@cfl.rr.com> Sun, Aug 13, 2006 at 7:20 AM
To: Terry Wilson <aftercolumbia@gmail.com>
Cc: Andrew Fiddes <andrew@fiddes.us>
Terry,
Please refer to the original email Andrew sent you to alert you regarding
your postings.

As a side note, I find you an intelligent individual. I wish you would
channel that intelligence toward other things space related, other than the
agenda that you are professing. I consider much of this spam, in a group by
definition, spam is NOT permitted.

Below are the group guidelines, which are to be adhered to. Everyone is
subject to these. No one is picking on you here. It is just the way it is
for all the members as a whole:


________

1: Topics should stay within the general content of the group name and
intentions. Topics concerning the American space program, past, present and
future are acceptable.

2: Topics that stray beyond the norm, should not be discussed in length, but
input from others, solicited or offered as to where information can be
obtained (i.e. links) are fine.

3: Threads cannot be disseminated beyond this group (such as to other lists
or newsgroups) without referencing the author with his/her permission.
Having been granted permission, the poster will reference "Inside KSC" as
the origin of the post and the author.

4: Personal attacks will not be tolerated and will be dealt with in a swift
and fair manner to any party(s) involved.

5: No sensitive data that can or would compromise the National Aeronautics
and Space Administration, or its contractors will be allowed to be posted.
This includes information that is disseminated from other sources, such as
other space related websites that post leaked, and or sensitive information.
This guideline will be strictly enforced. Not adhering to this guideline
will cause immediate banning from this group permanently.

6: No indecent behavior or constant obscenities are permitted.

7: No unsolicited material(spam) from other groups, or the like will be
allowed without the permission of myself, the list owner, or co-moderators.


Not adhering to these guidelines will cause an initial warning by this
groups moderators, then permanent group expulsion.


-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Wilson [mailto:aftercolumbia@gmail.com]
[Quoted text hidden]
Rick Fischer <ffischer@cfl.rr.com> Sun, Aug 13, 2006 at 7:35 AM
To: Terry Wilson <aftercolumbia@gmail.com>
Cc: Andrew Fiddes <andrew@fiddes.us>


-----Original Message-----
From: Terry Wilson [mailto:aftercolumbia@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 1:08 AM
To: Andrew Fiddes
Cc: ffischer@cfl.rr.com
Subject: Re: Inside KSC

> So you feel that you have NOT been telling us about all your plans?
> Well, we do. <

I take it, then that think you are speaking for the other 606 members of the
group?

Also, the only way you can truly qualify this statement is by not only
dredging through every last thing that I've ever posted on the internet and
comparing it to what I've posted on inside_ksc, you would also have to
search all of my private files as well for the plans that I've never posted
on the internet.  Should I be calling the RCMP or FBI?


I/WE DO NOT TAKE KINDLY TO THREATS




It seems to me that your last email, and this one, is actually not meant to
do anything particularly productive, just tick me off enough that I'll just
go and sign off in spite.  I have seen more childish stuff come my way over
other groups and over emails than this, but it is a surprise coming from
someone at Inside_KSC.

BULL

If you take the time to sort through posts from
"columbiaaccidentinvestigation", you will see another member of the group
whose views on the group are just as severe as mine (and elsewhere, they are
more so, to the point where I have defended NASA and the CAIB; not once did
I ever call him "arrogant", or anything else of that sort.)

I HAVE ALREADY CONTACTED HIM, AND HE AGREED WITHOUT RESISITANCE OR HAGGLING
TO ADHERE TO THE GROUPS GUIDELINES.



> What I am saying is that we don't want to hear about your
> "frustration" all the time on the list. <

That's more like the sort of material I can take with me and learn from.
Again though, I'd question that "we" might not include all of the other 606
members on the list.

> This doesn't mean I want to debate your inane ideas further <

You probably mean "insane".


ANDREW MEANT "INANE"



When I call something insane, I can back it up.  I like the idea of an easy
to operate reusable orbital service vehicle that can launch medium class
payloads an order of magnitude cheaper than its contemporaries.  That is
what the Shuttle was supposed to be and what it is not.  I can give you
volumes of information to back up that claim.

NOT ON THIS GROUP


> There is a reason you only have a handful of members on your list...no
> one wants to hear you.  Quit punishing us for the lack of interest in
> your position. <

The first sentence I really can't argue with.  You are perfectly
correct: the aftercolumbia group has joined the vast majority of inactive
forums and discussion groups.  Your implication though is that no one wants
to hear the "Lost In Space" position (reference to a book by journalist Greg
Klerkx.)  That is not the case at all, and I can give you volumes to back
that up too.


NOT ON THIS GROUP



Also, your blanket statement this time includes not just the 606 members of
the Inside_KSC group (which must include over 550 lurkers who don't post
anything that would indicate their positions on such issues), but the entire
world, including the starving children in Africa that so many I talk to say
we should be spending NASA's budget on.

HUH?????


My apologies for frustrating you with my views that NASA really needs an
overhaul in order to change for the better.  But you are doing nothing to
change my opinions of NASA, only my opinions of you personally.  I hope you
cease flaming me, because it is doing nothing to hurt my ego.  To be
perfectly honest, it is rather nice to know that someone presumably in the
organization I'd like to influence towards positive change actually cares
enough about these issues to flame me in a direct email.  I think if we ever
sat down on the same table and discussed them rationally, you'd probably
find that we agree on more than you think we would right now.

YOUR IDEA'S ARE VALID AND DO DESERVE CONSIDERATION, BUT NOT ON MY GROUP, AS
IT DOES "NOT" FIT THE GROUPS CRITERIA.


THIS CONVERSATION HAS COME TO AN END.

Rick Fischer




Terry Wilson <aftercolumbia@gmail.com> Sun, Aug 13, 2006 at 8:12 AM
To: Rick Fischer <ffischer@cfl.rr.com>
Cc: Andrew Fiddes <andrew@fiddes.us>
> > So you feel that you have NOT been telling us about all your plans?
> > Well, we do. <
>
> I take it, then that think you are speaking for the other 606 members of the
> group?
>
> Also, the only way you can truly qualify this statement is by not only
> dredging through every last thing that I've ever posted on the internet and
> comparing it to what I've posted on inside_ksc, you would also have to
> search all of my private files as well for the plans that I've never posted
> on the internet.  Should I be calling the RCMP or FBI?
>
>
> I/WE DO NOT TAKE KINDLY TO THREATS

That is not a threat at all, it was a sarcastic inquiry as to how well
you actually do know all my plans.  You insinuated that I have shared
EVERY space idea that I've ever come up with on the inside_ksc group,
implying an invasion of my privacy to find out about every last one of
them (some of which are proprietary.)  I have no plans to contact
either of these agencies.  Thanks for telling me that "inane" is a
real word; I've never encountered it in offline confersation.

I asked you to provide an example, or examples from my posts at
inside_ksc where I have broken the guidelines.  I didn't see any in
your reply.  I'm not going to post anything on inside_ksc, but I'm not
about to change my delivery status (merely joint the ranks of the many
lurkers you claim to speak for.)

With the exception of the first two messages from Rick, all of your
contributions to this thread have been shockingly immature and
baseless (in contravention of your guidelines #4 and #6 were they on
the group), and I agree with you: this conversation is over.  Do not
ever contact me again.

Terry Wilson
After Columbia Project

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you
judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it
will be measured to you." - Matthew 7:1,2 (NIV)